Football Discussion Thread - Page 35

*FunkyJ* · 09-07-2006, 06:00 AM

I think 12-1 was the original record and obviously it has been broken now.

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*fenix down* · 09-07-2006, 09:20 AM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jewell @ Sep 7 2006, 10:27 AM) [snapback]376846[/snapback]</div>

It was a decent performance last night but nothing to go overboard about.

Did anyone see the scoreline in the San Marino - Germany match? 13-0 must be some kind of record. I think it's about time these smaller nations were consigned to prequalifying.
[/b]

See a lot of people have been talking about the rubbish teams going through pre qualfying, but in an age of every manager bemoaning the increasing number of fixtures making a number of teams go through one qualifying competition before then starting the proper one seems hypocritical.

I appreciate that 13-0 scorelines make something of a mockery of the notion of competition, but that really is a freak result. All the pundits on TV have belittled Andorra's performance against England, but I dont class 5-0 as a whooping and frankly I expected more.

How are the lesser nations supposed to improve if they are never given a chance to play against the top sides. Furthermore how would you decide who has to go through pre-qualifying? Given the fact that N Ireland failed to score a single goal in the last Euro Championships qualifying presumably they would have been contenders to go into a hypothetical pre-qualifying tourney if one had been created for the 2008 championships, yet they beat Spain this week. Would players like Eidur Gudjohnsen have ever emerged if 106th place Iceland had been confined to a pre-qualifying tournament?

If you look at the rankings you see the following for the european teams:

4. France
5. England
6. Netherlands
7. Spain
8. Portugal
9. Germany
10 Czech Rep
13 Switzerland
15 Ukraine
17 Denmark
20 Sweden

26 Romania
30 Poland
33 Russia
33 Serbia
36 Bulgaria
38 Ireland
40 Scotland

42 Bosnia
43 Slovakia
49 Norway
51 Israel
55 Belgium
56 Wales
57 Austria
58 Slovenia

62 Albania
65 Lithuania
67 Finland
68 FYR Macedonia
69 Belarus
72 Northern Ireland
73 Moldova
78 Latvia
78 Estonia
80 Hungary

90 Cyprus

104 Armenia
106 Azerbaijan

122 Malta
124 Leichtenstein
132 Andorra

141 Kazakhstan

191 San Marino

Now I dont really see where you would draw the line for a pre-qualifying tournament. The fact of the matter is even ignoring the bottom 8 ranked european teams the standard of football ranges from the excellent to the risible. I think looking at the rankings as they stand at the moment that Cyprus would be the obvious cutoff point, but I dont really think that when people talk of pre-qualifying they are necessarily talking about the likes of Cyprus, Armenia and Azerbaijan. I mean we didnt destroy Azerbaijan last time we went to Baku and whilst they dont win often they dont get hammered so regularly that I think they could be said to be undeserving of a place in the Euro qulalifiers and the chance to play top level teams.

So with that in mind we are only really left with five sides to go into a hypothetical pre-qualifying. What would be the point of that, it would not have an effect on the overall number of games played by most European teams as presumably one or two of the five would end up in qualifying properly. So only three groups would benefit by having one team fewer to play.

Furthermore if you set a precedent like that with the Euro qualifiers what would you do with the world cup? I feel you would be forced to do the same thing which raises further problems as that is meant to be a competition for ALL affiliated nations. The arguement that pre-qualifying already exists in Oceania doesn't work at all as the standard of football there is universally dire whereas in Europe whilst there are a couple of very poor teams whose shortcomings have unsportingly been highlighted by the media in this last round of games the overall standard of football is actually much more varied than one might originally think.

PS I agree, Lamps should be dropped, he has been very poor recently, though I have thought he is a little over-rated for a while. Maybe its cos he's stopped getting goals by having the ball take a wicked deflection off a defender following one of his trademark shanks.

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*jewell* · 09-07-2006, 09:31 AM

EDIT: I'm going to reply properly to the previous post.

I appreciate that 13-0 scorelines make something of a mockery of the notion of competition, but that really is a freak result. All the pundits on TV have belittled Andorra's performance against England, but I dont class 5-0 as a whooping and frankly I expected more. [/b]

When you look at the gulf in class between sides like Germany and England to those of Andorra et al, 13-0 scorelines should be far more prevalent. But not everybody takes the sort of attitude towards these games, that Germany did last night.

How are the lesser nations supposed to improve if they are never given a chance to play against the top sides. Furthermore how would you decide who has to go through pre-qualifying?[/b]

Countries like Andorra and Liechtenstein will never improve no matter who they play. They simply don't have a large enough population which consequently means they don't have a large enough pool of players from which to select a decent team. It's a fact of life and one which we can't do alot about.

Given the fact that N Ireland failed to score a single goal in the last Euro Championships qualifying presumably they would have been contenders to go into a hypothetical pre-qualifying tourney if one had been created for the 2008 championships, yet they beat Spain this week. Would players like Eidur Gudjohnsen have ever emerged if 106th place Iceland had been confined to a pre-qualifying tournament?[/b]

But wouldn't you say teams could improve at a faster rate by playing other teams of a similar standard? I don't see what one can learn by taking regular hammerings.

BTW, players like Eidur Gudjohnson emerge through the club ranks.

Now I dont really see where you would draw the line for a pre-qualifying tournament. The fact of the matter is even ignoring the bottom 8 ranked european teams the standard of football ranges from the excellent to the risible. I think looking at the rankings as they stand at the moment that Cyprus would be the obvious cutoff point, but I dont really think that when people talk of pre-qualifying they are necessarily talking about the likes of Cyprus, Armenia and Azerbaijan. I mean we didnt destroy Azerbaijan last time we went to Baku and whilst they dont win often they dont get hammered so regularly that I think they could be said to be undeserving of a place in the Euro qulalifiers and the chance to play top level teams.[/b]

You make an excellent point of how Azerbaijan have improved over the last few years. That's why I believe UEFA need to be careful in who they put into pre-qualifying. They should only handpick the crappest teams and put them into pre-qualifying rather base it on the rankings.

If I had my way, there would be a five-tier grouping, with the bottom group having to pre-qualify.

It would be as following;

Tier 1 - England, Germany, Italy, Spain, France, Portugal, Holland and Czech Rep.
Tier 2 - Sweden, Croatia, Russia, Greece, Turkey, Switzerland, Ukraine etc.
Tier 3 - Belgium, Norway, Scotland, Austria, wales etc.
Tier 4 - Albania, Azerbaijan, Armenia, Kazakhstan ect.
Tier 5 - Andorra, Malta, Liechtenstein, San Marino, Luxembourg and Faroe Islands.

Squire · 09-07-2006, 10:38 AM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jewell @ Sep 7 2006, 02:31 PM) [snapback]376937[/snapback]</div>

It would be as following;

Tier 1 - England, Germany, Italy, Spain, France, <strike>Portugal</strike>, Holland and Czech Rep.
Tier 2 - Sweden, Croatia, Russia, Greece, Turkey, Switzerland, Ukraine etc.
Tier 3 - Belgium, Norway, Scotland, Austria, wales etc.
Tier 4 - Albania, Azerbaijan, Armenia, Kazakhstan ect.
Tier 5 - Andorra, Malta, Liechtenstein, San Marino, Luxembourg and Faroe Islands.
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Not if Portugal get banned!

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*FunkyJ* · 09-07-2006, 10:41 AM

What is this with Portugal?

Not more match fixing rubbish?

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Squire · 09-07-2006, 11:26 AM

Not quite, my friend was telling me about it yesterday.

Apparently to play some Angolan, but FIFA declined. So they decided to goto the Civil Courts to try and overturn the ruling, which is of course against FIFA Regulations (hence why Italy could have been banned too, due to Juventus).

If they do go through with it, Portgual will be banned from all International competitions and all of their teams will be withdrawn from European competitions. This means that some Champions League groups will only have 3 teams.

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*FunkyJ* · 09-07-2006, 12:16 PM

Oh i see now, so it is serious stuff that they face.

Will they get banned or just a slap on the wrist?

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*fenix down* · 09-07-2006, 01:31 PM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jewell @ Sep 7 2006, 02:31 PM) [snapback]376937[/snapback]</div>

Tier 1 - England, Germany, Italy, Spain, France, Portugal, Holland and Czech Rep.
Tier 2 - Sweden, Croatia, Russia, Greece, Turkey, Switzerland, Ukraine etc.
Tier 3 - Belgium, Norway, Scotland, Austria, wales etc.
Tier 4 - Albania, Azerbaijan, Armenia, Kazakhstan ect.
Tier 5 - Andorra, Malta, Liechtenstein, San Marino, Luxembourg and Faroe Islands.
[/b]

I do see your point Jewell regarding certain small countries, basically all your teams in tier 5, are never going to become that amazing (I dont think its fair to say they'll never get better, I think you have to look at these things relatively - if Liechtenstein could become a tier 4 team, without patronising them that would be the equivalent of England winning the World Cup).

What I wonder though is at what tier level you would start having pre qualifying. If it's just tier 5 then I think my point about it having limited effect still stands, but the more tiers you bring in the more nations there are that have to play an increased number of fixtures and I thought this was something managers of club teams were trying to cut down.

Btw, to clarify about the Portuguese matter, minnows Gil Vicente have taken have taken legal action against their football association (FPF) after being relegated last season for gaining eligibility for a player - Angola star Mateus - at a civil court. This is against the rules and could technically cost Benfica and Porto their CL places. Same thing as would have happened withthe Italian sides if Juve if they had continued their appeal. Any ban would be the harshest penalty FIFA could impose and the lack of news about this after it broke suggests to me that it almost certainly won't happen.

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Squire · 09-07-2006, 04:49 PM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fenix down @ Sep 7 2006, 06:31 PM) [snapback]376980[/snapback]</div>

Btw, to clarify about the Portuguese matter, minnows Gil Vicente have taken have taken legal action against their football association (FPF) after being relegated last season for gaining eligibility for a player - Angola star Mateus - at a civil court. This is against the rules and could technically cost Benfica and Porto their CL places. Same thing as would have happened withthe Italian sides if Juve if they had continued their appeal. Any ban would be the harshest penalty FIFA could impose and the lack of news about this after it broke suggests to me that it almost certainly won't happen.
[/b]

Ahh, thanks for clarifying that.

I hope it does happen. :rolleyes:

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*fenix down* · 09-07-2006, 07:13 PM

I dunno it seems a bit harsh to me as the two clubs affected have nothing to do with it but it would be pretty funny!

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Squire · 09-07-2006, 10:01 PM

Well the thing is. It's the Portuguese FA's fault for allowing it to happen, hence why they pay the price since they should be able to control their clubs.

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*jewell* · 09-08-2006, 05:36 AM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Squire @ Sep 7 2006, 04:26 PM) [snapback]376964[/snapback]</div>

If they do go through with it, Portgual will be banned from all International competitions and all of their teams will be withdrawn from European competitions. This means that some Champions League groups will only have 3 teams. [/b]

That would be very funny to see. I hope it happens.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fenix down @ Sep 7 2006, 06:31 PM) [snapback]376980[/snapback]</div>

I do see your point Jewell regarding certain small countries, basically all your teams in tier 5, are never going to become that amazing (I dont think its fair to say they'll never get better, I think you have to look at these things relatively - if Liechtenstein could become a tier 4 team, without patronising them that would be the equivalent of England winning the World Cup).[/b]

That's exactly what was trying to say. Liechtenstein could only ever hope to become a tier 4 side, at best, so why are they wasting their time playing against the higher tier sides? It's a waste of time for both parties. I realise I'm abit of a snob about this whole issue but, I think it's perfectly justified in this instance.

What I wonder though is at what tier level you would start having pre qualifying. If it's just tier 5 then I think my point about it having limited effect still stands, but the more tiers you bring in the more nations there are that have to play an increased number of fixtures and I thought this was something managers of club teams were trying to cut down.[/b]

Just tier 4 and 5. I would have said just tier 5 but I think it would do them alot of good in the long run to play sides from a level above themselves.

As for the increase in fixtures, if UEFA structured it in the right way, it wouldn't be much of a problem. For example you could have several groups, each with three teams in it, which would mean only four games for each side. Not a great burden, is it?

Squire · 09-08-2006, 09:32 PM

William Gallas today showed that he is an expert of lying through his teeth after saying that he is "ready to fill in at left back, or any position Arsenal need".

Now, shoot me if I'm wrong here, but didn't he say he wanted to leave Chelsea because he was fed-up of being a utility man and only wanted to play centreback?

Edit: I thought I'd add in the Gravesen interview too, because its rather comical.

"Capello arrived and told me in a very arrogant manner - without having seen me play - that he didn't want me. He is not a nice guy. He did not even give me an opportunity. He didn't even know my name. He was arrogant and selfish. Mine wasn't the only name he couldn't remember. He referred to goalkeeper Iker Casillas as Bobo, which is the name of a former keeper who had already left the club.

The former Everton man is often labelled as a defensive midfielder and Gravesen is baffled why Real also thought that was the case.

"I don't know what they saw in me but I am not a defensive midfielder - at least I don't see myself that way. They should have signed Carsley who used to play behind me at Everton - but I'm happy they made the mistake."

I've always said they signed the wrong player. Real really wanted Carsley and they got mixed up because they look so similar. This just confirms it!

Edit #2: New News today!

Juventus drew their first game in Serie B to 10-man Rimini, with this being the pick of the action

"Adrian Ricchiuti seized on a misunderstanding between Jean-Alain Boumsong and Robert Kovac and fired past World Cup winning goalkeeper Gianluigi Buffon."

I bet Newcastle are missing him already.

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*jewell* · 09-11-2006, 05:38 AM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Squire @ Sep 9 2006, 02:32 AM) [snapback]377297[/snapback]</div>

William Gallas today showed that he is an expert of lying through his teeth after saying that he is "ready to fill in at left back, or any position Arsenal need".

Now, shoot me if I'm wrong here, but didn't he say he wanted to leave Chelsea because he was fed-up of being a utility man and only wanted to play centreback?[/b]

Money was also an issue.

I bet Newcastle are missing him already. [/b]

Let's not waste our time talking about the open air circus that is Newcastle United Football Club.

Squire · 09-14-2006, 08:29 AM

Did anyone watch Man Utd vs Celtic yesterday? It was a pretty decent game I thought, and Celtic made a reasonable showing of themselves.

Their squad depth was pretty poor though, with them bringing on Paul Telfer. That's kinda desperate, especially when he forced the best save out of his own keeper. However, I thought the star of the show was Nakamura. I know Man Utd won the game, and to be fair they should have scored a lot more than 3, but Nakamura was probably one of the few players who really showed their quality. He didn't give the ball away once through the whole match, and was regularly skinning the Man Utd defenders. Very composed under extreme pressure, very similar to Riquelme actually, especially in the way he looks very laid back about it all. The free-kick was just perfect, and for me he deserved the MoM.

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*FunkyJ* · 09-14-2006, 09:52 AM

Saha man of the match for me, he dominated and was deadly all game.

Nakamuras free kick was stunning.

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*jewell* · 09-23-2006, 04:01 PM

Interesting round of games in the Premiership this weekend.

Arsenal seem to have got things back on track with two very good wins (Man Utd and Sheffield Utd). Hopefully they can now go on and put up a serious to Chelsea and United.

It also was pleasing to see Tottenham lose yet again

and what's happening to Forest? They were looking so good up until a few weeks. Are we going to have to wait another season before we see the mighty Forest in their rightful place? In the championship?

Squire · 09-23-2006, 05:38 PM

Well, Forest haven't really lost form, they've just been playing the teams at the top and drawing to them. It would have been nice to see them beat Tranmere as it would have opened up a 6 point gap between 1st and 3rd, but it wasn't meant to be.

I would like to see them get promoted and ultimately end up their rightful place challenging for the Premership ahead of Newcastle. :P

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